Vegetarians

[Jitendra Hydonus]

What are the benefits of being a vegetarian? First let us look at what meat eaters have become and what it has done to our world and its people. Meat makes you restless and it is difficult to sit still and meditate. Meat causes malignant moods in those who indulge in it regularly. If you have been around constant meat eaters you will find it difficult to cheer them up. You will find that they are susceptible to much more irritation than most vegetarians. Meat causes all kinds  of health issues and is the number one health problem in the United States and other rich nations that can afford it. Meat causes obesity because of its fat and cholesterol and the grease needed to fry it. Meat causes wide range poverty. We could feed the whole world easily if we did not need the money and land that it takes to raise and kill livestock. Meat causes incredible health costs to countries who indulge in it. Meat causes aggression and disagreeable temperament in those who sustain it regularly for their diet. Meat causes material consciousness whereas vegetarians, for the most part,  have a more spiritual approach to life. Meat causes physical consciousness in contradistinction to for instance; fruits, which impart a spiritual vibration on those who consume fruits.

Meat is more costly to transport than fruits and vegetables because it requires constant frozen refrigerated trucks that expend fuel to keep it cold. Meat requires more packaging issues, since it has to be wrapped individually in plastic bags. Meat, unlike vegetables and fresh fruit has to be frozen requiring more energy waste in stores and home to keep in fresh. Meat causes more use of energy to cook or fry it then vegetables. Meat is one of the greatest disasters to our planet as we clear more and more land, for instance, in the Amazon to feed Americans hamburgers. As a result the atmosphere is no longer able to absorb all the carbon dioxide that plants absorb for their growth and that help us have a more healthy oxygenated atmosphere.

[guest587]

Thank you Steve, I admire your stance on the issue and can agree the way our industry processes and produces is most harmful. Greed is almost always the underlying factor. Mass production- becoming so large, and motivated by profit, we neglect things like compassion. This is true in most any industry, and dominates East and West.

Factory-farmed animals are fed cheap, mass-produced grains because it fattens them quickly at low cost. That means they're eating GMOs and pesticides. They're pumped full of hormones and antibiotics because these make them bigger and fatter, too. And it gets scarier: Under federal regulations, it's perfectly legal to feed livestock and poultry things you would never eat or want any animal to eat. Yet 'additives' that are allowed under the law include 'feather meal' (ground-up feathers); both dried and unprocessed 'recycled' animal waste (that's poop to you and me); food adulterated with waste from rodents, insects, or birds; 'polyethylene roughage replacement' (that's plastic filler); bacteria, including some that are resistant to antibiotics; toxic chemicals such as PCBs and dioxin; and a long list of other substances that don't sound like anything you would want to feed an animal.

Taken from, "Food: What The Heck Should I Eat?" By Dr. Mark Hyman
http://spiritualportal.net/index.php/topic,8288.msg40667.html#msg40667

I watched a show last night that revealed just how much micro-plastics we eat a year. It's in almost everything, even sneaking in the vegetarian diets. Literally we have an entire jar full of micro-plastics in our system.

I suspect even if the world was mostly vegetarian there would still be much larger issues- where meat is not solely to blame for the underlying problem of greed.

[Jitendra Hydonus]

I am happy to know you have found time to inform yourself of these things. My concern is beyond just the  technology and the greed but also having people posting links promoting killing animals. I find it quite tragic that many friends I’ve had in the past lovingly take care of their pets but have no second thoughts when they let others take the lives of beautiful soulful animals for their perversion at eating them. And what I see as the disrespect for life when it comes to eating what ever people feel they desire to eat. Little do they know that humans were not even meant to eat meat. But if it serves a useful purpose here I will put the reasons other then just greed and destruction of nature, and health problems. In the meantime I’m practicing for performance this weekend and still hoping to get in some meditation, which is such an important factor to meditation practice;  that is, meat causes mood swings and restless 😬 tension which makes peace and stillness very difficult. What we feed ourselves both nutritiously and psychically can change our lives for the better or worst.

Saturday we will have a new moon so I pray it evokes a time of successful new beginnings for you and others Eric in your intentions and plans.

[guest587]

In fact the star of the show should be the vegetables according to Dr. Mark Hyman.

I agree, it is sad to kill mindlessly and cruelly.

I just read some more from the section on meat about global warming and studies between carnivores and vegetarians... A few experts I hope to continue to share here to address the issues in your initial post. Regenerative farming is offered as a solution to global warming.

I would be curious to read the link between meat eaters and restlessness... You will see in the following excerpts that there are many other factors to consider- surely there exist restless and/or obese vegans/vegetarians.

[mccoy]

My take on meat is probably neutral. I haven't been eating meat nor fish for 45 years now. But I'm aware of the limitations of other people.

I also agree that a meal with meat plus an abundance of vegetables is far healthier than a meal of vegan junk food.

The ethical issue underlined by Steve has its importance but, again, I believe that we can only mildly suggest something to other people, never forcedly.

By the way, processed meat and 'red' meat (mammalian's meat?) are officially carcinogenic foods according to the IARC, the agency on the research on cancer.

But the issue is probably far more complex.

Dr. Hyman suggests eating meat in moderation, as a side dish, together with many vegetables and plant products. Purely on the nutritional side, I don't see much damage with this kind of diet.

Let's remember that there is a trend presently called the carnivorous diet, which means eating only meat or fish. Nothing else. That's patently crazy and against the dietary common sense, potentially very detrimental to health and surely not in favour of longevity.

[Jitendra Hydonus]

My take on meat is probably neutral. I haven't been eating meat nor fish for 45 years now. But I'm aware of the limitations of other people.

I also agree that a meal with meat plus an abundance of vegetables is far healthier than a meal of vegan junk food.

The ethical issue underlined by Steve has its importance but, again, I believe that we can only mildly suggest something to other people, never forcedly.

By the way, processed meat and 'red' meat (mammalian's meat?) are officially carcinogenic foods according to the IARC, the agency on the research on cancer.

But the issue is probably far more complex.

Dr. Hyman suggests eating meat in moderation, as a side dish, together with many vegetables and plant products. Purely on the nutritional side, I don't see much damage with this kind of diet.

Let's remember that there is a trend presently called the carnivorous diet, which means eating only meat or fish. Nothing else. That's patently crazy and against the dietary common sense, potentially very detrimental to health and surely not in favour of longevity.

i read your entry several times mccoy. My take on it is that when we 'mildly' suggest eating meat as 'healthy' We are promoting a lifestyle that encourages violence towards other creatures. In this sense i am not talking about health but rather ethics and ecological disaster. So in a sense encouraging meat eating on a site like this is antithetical to the sites spiritual purpose and can be construed as encouraging unprovoked violence towards animals. Also if we read the writings of Sri Yukteswar he clearly says that human beings are not even anatomically built to digest meat in their bodies as for instance a tiger or bird of prey would be.

[guest587]

Dear Steve, I hope by posing my thoughts on the matter and sharing from my recent source of inspiration, you do not find the contrary information to be a direct challenge to your beliefs. Choosing not to eat meat for personal, spiritual, religious, ethical, or environmental reasons are completely valid and respectable. I am not sure I agree with Sri Yukteswars comment that we are not designed to eat meat. I think evolution and science has shown otherwise. Life consumes life. There are even meat-eaters out there who find their reasoning for doing so personal and spiritual. I am not here to condemn someone for being vegetarian and I am not going to condemn someone who respects life and eats meat, because it is possible to do both.

This planet teaches us about killing for survival. Unfortunately, it is true, we have reached absurd levels of cruelty thanks to contributing themes of greed and convenience. If I remember reading your opinion on killing another human being for the sake of war, there was a certain readiness for battle. To be okay with killing humans because we think its serving a "righteous cause" but to call it wrong to kill for survival to me is a bit contradictory. I'm no fan of killing. I don't kill the cockroaches either. I don't want to kill anything. There's nothing fun about it. But it would seem science and nature tells us we need protein, and that meat is a better source of protein with easier to process bioavailable nutrients compared to sticking to a strictly plant based diet. 

It's true you are here as a vegetarian, proof that it is possible. Also true, this planet host life for omnivore, herbivore and carnivore alike. I don't think being vegetarian means it's for everyone. I also don't think being a meat eater will exclude you from communion with God. This being my opinion. And of course, the way things are currently- industrialization and mass production is neither natural or healthy. For example, I had no clue that factory farms feed cattle skittles just to fatten them up. It's obscenely cruel.


As for the focus on meat eaters in your first post. Well of course frying food is not good for you... But- I want to quote more from the book now,

Generally speaking, people who eat a lot of meat also have unhealthy habits overall: They weigh more, drink more, smoke more, eat less produce and fiber, and are more sedentary than those who consume less meat, according to a study involving more than 600,000 subjects. So maybe it isn't the meat that's damaging carnivores' health- maybe it's everything else they are doing to damage their health

In recent decades, the anti-meat advocates and scientists have tried to scare Americans by linking meat to everything from cancer to heart disease, disease, and even obesity. But time and time again the research has shown that the opposite is true. As our ancestors knew, meat is a nutrient-dense food that can help prevent disease and nutritional deficiencies when consumed in combination with plenty of plants and vegetables. Of course, that's not to say that there isn't a dark side to meat consumption. Most of the meat consumed in America and other developed countries, sadly, comes from factory farms, where animals are subjected to cruel, unsanitary, and often unimaginable conditions. These industrial behemoths contribute to climate change, pollute the environment, and in some cases, abuse their workers.

Meat is not just a good source of protein (easier to extract and requires less amounts than from plants).

Animal foods are our only source of vitamin B12, which is essential for life itself. Meat also provides vitamin E, vitamin D, and the other B vitamins. It contains enzymes that we need to access nutrients, essential amino acids, and cancer-fighting antioxidants like beta-carotene (which our bodies convert into vitamin A), lutein, and zeaxanthin. Meat contains minerals such as zinc, selenium, magnesium, sodium, and potassium. And it also contains iron, which is particularly important for women, a great many of whom are anemic due to menstruation. It's true, as vegans point out, that all these minerals (and even protein) are available in vegetables and legumes and other foods. But our bodies internal systems have to work to convert them into a form we can use, whereas nutrients in meat are much more bioavailable.

...Protein is required to maintain and build muscle. With the loss of muscle (sarcopenia) comes age-related hormonal changes including pre-diabetes (which causes heart disease, cancer, and dementia), higher levels of stress hormones like cortisol, and lower levels of anti-aging hormones like growth hormone and testosterone. That's why studies show that as you age you need more protein to prevent disease and death. It's no wonder we evolved to eat meat.

Well. I don't plan on adding more about the benefits of eating meat in a thread dedicated to being a vegetarian. But I will provide what Dr. Mark Hyman has to say about combatting the global warming issue as a meat-eater.

Can we do anything about all this? Early research has shown that regenerative farming may be the future of meat that is healthy for us as well as the environment, and humane for the animals, too. Well-managed grazing operations can actually offset or even completely compensate for methane and other greenhouse gases linked to beef production by trapping carbon in the soil. The grass soaks up and stores, or sequesters, carbon, preventing carbon dioxide from being released into the atmosphere. Soil farming will save us. Watch the movie or read the book Kiss the Ground to learn how we can reduce carbon dioxide to preindustrial levels through regenerative farming.
These operations also involve regularly moving the animals to fresh pasture and keeping them away from streambeds, which can help prevent water pollution. For the most part, pasture-raised cattle do not rely on irrigated crops for feeding, which lessens the amount of water required to produce meat. By choosing grass-fed meat from small, sustainable farms, we also support the fair treatment of workers and live-stock. If you want to learn more about this, check out the Savory Institute ( www.savory.global ) and our grass-fed meat resources page at www.foodthebook.com/resources

Namaste ~

[mccoy]

@ Steve: what I meant exactly is that we can 'mildly' suggest that meat is not the ideal food for man. 'Mildly' means without sounding like religious extremists. I will never encourage people to eat meat, but even in the SRF lessons, Yogananda recognized that some people need meat and suggested fowl and white meats, instead of pork and beef, which are to be avoided altogether for spiritual aspirants.

Also, I agree, in this spiritual forum we must stress that meat IS NOT a food conducive to spiritual progress and when eating meat we are incurring some bad karma, since we participate psychologically nto the killing of the animals.

Whereas, the healthy implications are slightly different. MAny specialists with credentials though suggest to avoid meat completely for healtspan and longevity. Some of them suggest to eat fish in moderation, but to me, that's ethically contradictory. I like to see fish swimming in water, not dead on a dish.

The issue is complex. My personal, reasoned opinion is that we should avoid fish and meat. Dairy products and eggs are allowed in the Raja Yoga diet. Sri Yuksteswar also classifies fresh dairy products as sattvic. Unless there are personal intolerances of course.

[mccoy]

@ Eric: I never ate meat nor fish for 45 years now and I'm reasonably healthy and muscular at age 62. I work out with weights and do some aerobic exercise. Ditto for many other vegetarian people.

The importance of meat should not be exaggerated, dairy products and soy products have a high DIAAS score, rich of essential digestible aminoacid.

Bottom line to me is that it's an individual choice. Not everyone is organically, biologically or mentally ready to abandon meat. Although if one want it badly enough, it's possible to become a vegetarian very gradually, without eliminating fleshly food abruptly.

On the spiritual standpoint, meat should be abandoned, although that would be probably an advantage which can be felt at high levels of advancement. Probably.

[Jitendra Hydonus]

Just want to address this comment since i was already for it and thought that Eric might bring it up. This was his comment. And i would suggest to anyone attempting to read my mind, he or she looks to what i have expressed and not what exists in their head about what i have stated:

"This planet teaches us about killing for survival. Unfortunately, it is true, we have reached absurd levels of cruelty thanks to contributing themes of greed and convenience. If I remember reading your opinion on killing another human being for the sake of war, there was a certain readiness for battle. To be okay with killing humans because we think its serving a "righteous cause" but to call it wrong to kill for survival to me is a bit contradictory. I'm no fan of killing. I don't kill the cockroaches either. I don't want to kill anything. There's nothing fun about it. But it would seem science and nature tells us we need protein, and that meat is a better source of protein with easier to process bioavailable nutrients compared to sticking to a strictly plant based diet."~Eric

Yes of course there should be a readiness for battle. And it is not for the sake of war but usually as we have seen lately because others have been the aggressors. If anyone thinks this is not so i would say read the Bible of Bhagavad Gita. Where God explicitly encourages killing for a righteous cause. There is a great difference in killing human beings who have the good sense to know what's right but still suppress, poison, torture, and imprison others who do not believe they should have the power to do so.... and killing defenseless animals as human beings. Furthermore, it is not for survival that humans kill animals but for pleasure when they have vegetables and fruit to eat and buy if they have the money to do so. And i challenge anyone to quote me where i said it was wrong to kill for survival. People get things in their head or believe things and then they spin stories about other people that have different views this is what is wrong, because it misrepresents people like me. The spin doctor in our brains makes up the story we would like to believe but is quite often our own narrative to fit our own headlines. Lastly, scientists are not the authority on everything and not all scientists believe we need protein from meat. In fact, protein from various forms of nuts and legumes is all I've needed all my life and meat protein is in no way helpful to my diet or spiritual evolution.

As im writing this i am making an almond butter sandwhich for breakfast;

With an average of 7 to 8 grams of protein per 2-tablespoon serving, almond and peanut butter are some of the nut butters with the highest protein content. This amount of protein is equivalent to what is found in an egg or 1 ounce of meat.

healthyeating.sfgate.com/nut-butters-count-proteins-fats-2177.html
healthyeating.sfgate.com/nut-butters-count-proteins-fats-2177.html

.... and almond butter is not associated with the moral demise of a civilization as meat has been.

[guest587]

Hi Steve, you are not being 'accused' and I am not 'spinning stories' about you. Simply stated- I personally find the line of reasoning between being okay with killing in war and not okay killing for food a bit contradictory when originally humans hunted for their food and killed out of necessity. You are not being misrepresented but I am happy you would take the time to clarify as it is a confusion on my part. Again, I respect your spiritual philosophy and passion towards the matter and meant no offense. I disagree that I kill for pleasure. It would seem, between an evolutionary standpoint and what science says about our bodies ability to absorb nutrients from meat, that indeed our bodies are capable and even built for such a relationship to exist. Lastly...

A side-by-side comparison of the two proteins...

Grams of animal protein per 100 grams of:

Veal: 36.41
Beef: 36.12
Lamb: 32.08
Pork: 28.86
Chicken: 28.74
Tuna: 25.51
Sardines: 24.62
Cheese: 23.63
Salmon: 22.10
Crickets: 20.50
Eggs: 12.58

Grams of plant protein per 100 grams of:

Peanut butter: 22.21
Almonds: 20.96 (almond milk: 0.42)
Oats: 16.89
Tofu: 9.04
Lentils: 9.02
Black beans 8.86

As you see, you'd have to eat a whole lot of black beans, oats, or tofu to deliver the protein in just a small serving of meat. That doesn't mean eat should be your only source of protein. You can get a portion of daily protein from plants. But for most people, especially as we age and need more protein to maintain our muscle mass, animal protein is important.

I've also stated that I will try not to interfere much further in this thread seeing as you wish to discuss the benefits of being vegetarian both spiritually and physically. I don't think discussing what I find in this book( Food: What The Heck Should I Eat? http://spiritualportal.net/index.php/topic,8288.0.html )on meat yielding a productive conversation between us. Believe me, I think there are indeed benefits to being vegetarian and again valid reasons for choosing the path. I am happy to take a step back and read what you have to share on that matter. Please know my post are not attacks against you or your beliefs, I am not here assuming I know you nor am I here to debate endlessly ( http://spiritualportal.net/index.php/topic,8161.0.html ) I hardly know my self. I mean, wow. 

Some say that's our entire reason for being here. "Know Thy Self"

  

I thank you for creating this thread and sharing your views with us.

[Jitendra Hydonus]

Since I had both almond butter and what you see in the photo below ( it somehow turned upside down when i downloaded it but it shows 20 grams of protein per serving,  I have already had more protein than the amount at the top of your list and it is questionable if i even need it. But I think you may be getting into further disagreement with mccoy here, who has questioned the need to even have so much protein in the past. He has made the argument and points from dieticians that so much protein is actually deleterious to the health of most people our age.

I do not think people recognize they are doing things out of habit and pleasure instead of what is good for the planet and for their own spiritual welfare. People become self-satisfied and often act smug when told different, to the point of actually accusing others of what they didn't do or say...... in so doing they can protect their own interests and state of mind and ignore what may be better for them. Although i would agree with you that 'knowing thyself' is very important in spiritual progress it is also at times imperative to knowing the intentions of others with differing views, otherwise you could easily be put in jail in this country as i have personally witnessed.

You make the comment that ‘humans originally hunted and killed out of necessity’. Perhaps in your mind,  but i think if you read Genesis you will find that statement is only your opinion. The 'necessity' you speak of was not a necessity before in the garden of Eden.

Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. They will be yours for food.

Killing for food is only a necessity for those who have no other way of eating. Killing in war is also necessary when it is determined impossible to stop an aggressor with any other known means who is determined to act with unkindness and unrighteousness behaviors to attain his or her selfish ambitions.


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[mccoy]

@ both Eric  & Steve: protein is still debated, a very debated issue in nutrition. Amount of protein needed, quality of protein needed, in age groups and so on.

Usually, moderation in protein is pro-longevity, and an abundance of protein is pro-aging. Abundance is a relative term though, it depends upon activity, age an so on. Usually, for older people (65 and over) it's better to eat more protein to avoid sarcopenia, which is a condition detrimental to health and longevity.

Exercise is the best, because it counteracts the tendency to sarcopenia, giving a growing signal to muscles even without the protein signal.

I like to listen to everyone in nutrition, from the vegans to the heavy protein eaters. I do not agree with eating an abundance of protein but I agree that protein is not all the same.

Protein from almonds and nuts, from example,  is less effective than animal protein since it has the issue of a lesser absorption due to the limiting digestibility of some limiting essential aminoacids. Soy products do not have this issue. Animal products like dairy products do not have this issue.

It seems that roasted pistachios have a decent DIAAS score. Also some mixtures of protein have a DIAAS score higher than the single foods.

I think this is the reason why SRF never insisted on a vegan diet, including in the diet practiced by their monks dairy products and eggs. Not very much is needed of these foods.

[guest587]

The thing is, if you give me a book regarding an interest of mine- I excitedly cling to it. I suppose this is an extremely ordinary trait. I'm okay with that, I enjoy a little seclusion reading and learning. That doesn't mean I regard the book as the gospel. I think there's an aspect to being vegetarian not mentioned here... I practiced being vegetarian for a little while in my 20's. I felt lighter, sensitive and more in tune with my psychic awareness. I think following the advice of the Masters is a sensible approach, especially if one desires to emulate or experience a liberated state/union with God. That does not mean one can not experience these things being a meat eater. And regarding science... It is rarely a fixed thing. There's always something or someone breaking the mold. A pleasant, surprising mystery and new discoveries being made. To me there is so much we don't know about the the adaptability of humans and latent psychic powers. There's so much we just don't know, period. No matter what the science or the masters say. Choosing one or the other is not a better path, just a different path. For me, I prefer not to follow allopathic medicine. That's a path for many. Dr. Mark Hyman mentioned cherry picking but I think we all do this to an extent with the way we wish to experience life. Nothing wrong with that.

I've heard accounts of levitating monks, of interdimensional travel, communicating with angels or ET's, of telepathy being an ordinary feat... I believe them. I have experienced these things too. I think of where we want to reside with our consciousness, and think being a vegetarian is a way to help "raise ones vibration." Literally lightening the attachment to denser matter.
This is just my opinion. Aside from that, the compassion for life is probably the most noble. Truly a remarkable feat and a fulfilling expression.

@Steve, thanks for quoting the bible. Out of curiosity, do you believe everything in the Bible? I'm not sure I do. And I should tell you I've had Christians quote bible verse showing me why it's okay to eat meat.

For me there is one perfect scripture...

From the ten sufi principles...
"There is One Holy Book, the sacred manuscript of nature, the only scripture which can enlighten the reader."
http://spiritualportal.net/index.php/topic,5495.0.html

[Jitendra Hydonus]

In fact the star of the show should be the vegetables according to Dr. Mark Hyman.

I agree, it is sad to kill mindlessly and cruelly.

I just read some more from the section on meat about global warming and studies between carnivores and vegetarians... A few experts I hope to continue to share here to address the issues in your initial post. Regenerative farming is offered as a solution to global warming.

I would be curious to read the link between meat eaters and restlessness... You will see in the following excerpts that there are many other factors to consider- surely there exist restless and/or obese vegans/vegetarians.

I've heard accounts of levitating monks, of interdimensional travel, communicating with angels or ET's, of telepathy being an ordinary feat... I believe them. I have experienced these things too. I think of where we want to reside with our consciousness, and think being a vegetarian is a way to help "raise ones vibration." Literally lightening the attachment to denser matter.
This is just my opinion. Aside from that, the compassion for life is probably the most noble. Truly a remarkable feat and a fulfilling expression.

@Steve, thanks for quoting the bible. Out of curiosity, do you believe everything in the Bible? I'm not sure I do. And I should tell you I've had Christians quote bible verse showing me why it's okay to eat meat.

For me there is one perfect scripture...

From the ten sufi principles...
"There is One Holy Book, the sacred manuscript of nature, the only scripture which can enlighten the reader."
http://spiritualportal.net/index.php/topic,5495.0.html

No I do not. But if a so called Christians quoted me parts in the Bible that reinforce eating meat I would simply say to them that they are ignoring the first quote from (supposedly) God himself; “And God said behold I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of the Earth and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed, to you it shall be for meat Then I would simply follow up with this question;  Does God contradict himself?

Here is one among others I’ve absorbed….

Natural living ; SriYukteswar; “We find that when extraordinary means such as excessive fasting,  scourging,  or monastic confinement are resorted to for the purpose of suppressing the sexual passions this means seldom produce the desired effect. Experiment shows, however, that man can easily overcome these passions, the arch enemy of morality by natural living on a non-irritant diet above referred to thereby men gain calmness of mind which every psychologist knows is the most favorable to mental activity and  a clear understanding as well as to a judicial way of thinking.”