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The Four Noble Truths

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Jitendra Hy-do-u-no-us?
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« on: Jan 31, 2010 08:54 pm »

 
The Four Noble Truths

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

In life there is suffering. There is a difference between suffering and pain. Pain tells us that something is not right with the body. Suffering is the attachment we give to pain. We suffer when things do not go the way we want them. For instance: If there is a traffic jam and we say that it is horrible we have labeled it. We have created suffering in our labels. Wonder if there was a traffic jam on the morning of the Twin Towers coming down and we were in the traffice jam and did not get to work at the Towers on time thus avoiding being there. Would we then say the traffic jam was horrible? So how do we really know what things are when they happen? If it is what is happening and if it is good a enough that God made it that way then it is good enough for us. We have the ability to surrender to God when there are things that happen that we cannot change. This helps in the cessation of suffering.

There are somethings we can change. those things we should try to change. Other things we cannot.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
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« Reply #1 on: Jan 31, 2010 10:04 pm »

Steve,

I must ask you, as I have not seen these Four Noble Truths before. Where did they come from, if you know ? Seems I have missed many things. The " where they came from " is not of major importance, but seems the person who made these statements seems down on life in general, especially with that first statement.

I disagree with the first statement, " life means suffering ". Saying it like this , makes it sound like that this is all there is to life. Yes, there is suffering in life, but there is also joy. At times it seems certain people of certain religious/ spiritual paths, seem to only see, or to look for the suffering in life - it is almost like they feel " guilty " if they feel something besides suffering.

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God grant me the patience to change the things I can. The knowledge to know what I cannot change and the wisdom to know the difference.
words of wisdom, thanks

in Divine Friendship,
Spirit fox


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« Reply #2 on: Jan 31, 2010 10:35 pm »

Steve,

I must ask you, as I have not seen these Four Noble Truths before. Where did they come from, if you know ? Seems I have missed many things. The " where they came from " is not of major importance, but seems the person who made these statements seems down on life in general, especially with that first statement.

I disagree with the first statement, " life means suffering ". Saying it like this , makes it sound like that this is all there is to life. Yes, there is suffering in life, but there is also joy. At times it seems certain people of certain religious/ spiritual paths, seem to only see, or to look for the suffering in life - it is almost like they feel " guilty " if they feel something besides suffering.

Quote
God grant me the patience to change the things I can. The knowledge to know what I cannot change and the wisdom to know the difference.
words of wisdom, thanks

in Divine Friendship,
Spirit fox


It was witten by the Buddha

Suffering arises from the fact that we want things to be different then the way they are. There are somethings we cannot change. Like the morning traffic or the weather. When we react to these things we are causing suffering to ourselves. Because we are attached to how things should be rather than how they are. If you have ever had a loved one die or have had someone you cared about dearly, leave you; Then ask yourself if you suffered. We must be honest with ourselves here. As long as we see ourselves as the body and not spirit we identify with that which is imperfect. Because we have a dim memory of our soul and we want everything to be perfect like the soul; we suffer. The Buddha never said that there was not joy in life. He wanted to take away the root cause of suffering, which is attachment, so that joy could be felt. That ultimate joy that is found in enlightenment and not temporary joy. We must be careful to differentiate the difference between pain and pleasure and joy which is beyond these dualities.

The Buddha being in permanent bliss and joy tried to remove suffering for others. He recognized the suffering that most of us feel  Having the joy he experienced, he recognized the suffering that most of us feel. You see some people get used to living in a prison cell after years and years. Some birds are reluctant to fly once the cage door is open. In the same way some of us think that we are happy until things don't work out the way we want them too. Then we realize that suffering is part of life. Yet there is a way to remove this suffering. The Buddha came to help those who wanted this to occur in their lives.

Why is it that someone who is trying to help us attain a state of permanent bliss is associated with thinking that everything is suffering? Life is filled with suffering and moments of happiness also. But often these states of happiness are only temporary. It is like being on a see saw. One moment happy the next not. The Buddha saw this see saw experience as still living with suffering. He had a lasting solution not temporary.

Speaking of guilt: This to me is a totally different topic uniquely associated with Christianity. i think it stems from the idea of eternal heaven and hell and that we feel guilty if we do not live up to certain standards. To some extent people who have a conscience would feel guilty if they did something wrong. However feeling we are doomed to eternal hell without a chance to come back and right some of our mistakes, in this life or the next, leads to this guilt. i feel much more than suffering when i meditate. If you have tried meditating for any extended amount of time with some good techniques~there would be no need for guilt. Or to even consider this absurdity. This is a religion of fire and brimstone and eternal damnation it is something of the past. We have moved way beyond this and these kind of people. It is no sense talking with them about their old concepts of religion. How can you explain principles of trigonometry to someone who doesn't understand the basic principles of addition and subtraction? Move on Spirit Fox. These kind of people will only hold you back. They eat up your time arguing about the Bible when they could be meditating and experiencing bliss. i only speak to you about it because i hope that you are beyond such ignorance. This is one reason i am happy to be out of the ignorance of the Bible Belt.

The soul is ever new bliss; not to be confused with sorrow or any concepts you or any other people may have that identifies themselves with guilt and suffering. In the consciousness of spirit all seems right in the moment and the darkness of the past is washed away by the morning Sun of divine happiness!

Jitendra
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« Reply #3 on: Feb 01, 2010 07:47 pm »

Jitendra,

Your explanation of the suffering is very thorough, and now I understand more completely what is meant. Suffering is more our way of thinking, when things don't go as we want them to. Thank you for taking the time for such a complete response. Written by the Buddha, the Four Noble Truths. I will have to do some reading on the Buddhist way of thinking.

As for the guilt, it is not me that is feeling this guilt, but something I have observed from others and their posts, mostly on other forums - and it doesn't seem to be only one certain religion, but the one you mentioned does seem to have a corner market. Will have to agree with you that some religions do their best to " scare " their members into believing certain lines of thought.

I am moving beyond these lines of thinking and I find your forum an open-minded place to do so. Lots of positive thoughts and sharing of a variety of beliefs.

Quote
In the consciousness of spirit all seems right in the moment and the darkness of the past is washed away by the morning Sun of divine happiness!
I like this - this is from you ? Would you mind if I put this in my signature, giving you credit of course.

Spirit fox
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« Reply #4 on: Feb 01, 2010 07:54 pm »

Talk about not paying attention ! You posted this in the Buddhism section, and I ask the dumb question, who wrote the  Four Noble Truths ?

seems I need to be more observant, lol !

Spirit fox
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« Reply #5 on: Feb 01, 2010 08:10 pm »

Talk about not paying attention ! You posted this in the Buddhism section, and I ask the dumb question, who wrote the  Four Noble Truths ?

seems I need to be more observant, lol !

Spirit fox

Didn't really see it that way. You can be looking at recent posts and sometimes loose track of what heading they are coming from. At this time it is O.K. but as the forum gets larger it will be a bit impossible to read all the latest posts and we will have to look at the headings more often. Perhaps a lot of you do that already. So if i missed a post please bring it to my attention.

Steve

Jitendra,

Your explanation of the suffering is very thorough, and now I understand more completely what is meant. Suffering is more our way of thinking, when things don't go as we want them to. Thank you for taking the time for such a complete response. Written by the Buddha, the Four Noble Truths. I will have to do some reading on the Buddhist way of thinking.

As for the guilt, it is not me that is feeling this guilt, but something I have observed from others and their posts, mostly on other forums - and it doesn't seem to be only one certain religion, but the one you mentioned does seem to have a corner market. Will have to agree with you that some religions do their best to " scare " their members into believing certain lines of thought.

I am moving beyond these lines of thinking and I find your forum an open-minded place to do so. Lots of positive thoughts and sharing of a variety of beliefs.

Quote
In the consciousness of spirit all seems right in the moment and the darkness of the past is washed away by the morning Sun of divine happiness!
I like this - this is from you ? Would you mind if I put this in my signature, giving you credit of course.

Spirit fox


Yes that is something 'from me' or rather thru me and i would be honored to have you use it. Sometimes it takes another person to recognize the gems that come from within. You are quite good at that. It is a gift to be able to appreciate. Something i am trying to learn...... to appreciate everything that comes to us.
You can thank Brother Ishtananda from the Self-Realization Fellowship for the explanation of Buddhism about suffering (that) is very thorough. i went to one of his lectures that inspired much of this thread....

Jitendra
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« Reply #6 on: Feb 01, 2010 11:35 pm »

I usually look thru the topics, don't know how I missed this. Glad I found it - either way. Thanks to Brother Ishtananda then for the thorough explanation and thanks to you for sharing it here. Inspiration comes from many sources, inside and out.

Quote from: Steve Hydonus
Yes that is something 'from me' or rather thru me and i would be honored to have you use it. Sometimes it takes another person to recognize the gems that come from within. You are quite good at that. It is a gift to be able to appreciate. Something i am trying to learn...... to appreciate everything that comes to us.

Jitendra


I am honored to use your quote, it is a gift to be able to write gems like that.  Thank you !

in appreciation for all the gifts in our lives,
Spirit fox
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« Reply #7 on: Feb 10, 2010 11:52 am »

In the teaching of Buddha we find that life is permeated with suffering caused by desire, that suffering ceases when desire ceases, and that enlightenment obtained through right conduct and wisdom and meditation releases one from desire and suffering and rebirth. Furhermore we become one with nirvana or bliss consciousness.
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 11, 2012 06:52 am »

This is the absolute fact of life, now it means one must not get attach to any one in life as it gives only sufferings.
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 11, 2012 08:17 am »

This is the absolute fact of life, now it means one must not get attach to any one in life as it gives only sufferings.

Steve's back on. i think when we r on the path we get shaken up every time this happens. In plainer words; i don't think the higher ones allow it to stunt our spiritual progress.

Jitendra
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 11, 2012 12:48 pm »

This is the absolute fact of life, now it means one must not get attach to any one in life as it gives only sufferings.

if u learn to rise above ego no suffering exists.  i also do not believe that all attachments lead to suffering.  suffering is a 'teacher'......

this is what osho says about suffering.....


Osho Quotes on Suffering
 1.You would like to live a life where there is no suffering, but that life is not possible if you continuously carry the ego with you. You cannot make a life around you so that suffering disappears. If you carry the ego, again and again you will bump into some reality which will hurt the unreal. Whenever there is an encounter between reality and unreality, the unreal causes suffering.
 2.Use every opportunity in life for raising your intelligence, your consciousness. Ordinarily what we are doing is using every opportunity to create a hell for ourselves. Only you suffer, and because of your suffering, you make others suffer. And when so many people are living together, and if they all create suffering for each other, it goes on multiplying. That’s how the whole world has become a hell. It can be instantly changed. Just the basic thing has to be understood, that without intelligence there is no heaven.
 3.If you really want to get rid of misery and suffering then you will have to understand — you don’t have a self. Then it will be not just a small relief but a tremendous relief. And if you don’t have a self, the need for the other disappears. It was the need of the unreal self to go on being nourished by the other. You don’t need the other. And listen carefully: when you don’t need the other, you can love. And that love will not bring misery. Going beyond needs, demands, desires, love becomes a very soft sharing, a great understanding. When you understand yourself, that very day you have understood the whole of humanity. Then nobody can make you miserable. You know that they are suffering from an unreal self, and they are throwing their misery on anybody who is close by. Your love will make you capable of helping the person you love to get rid of the self.
 4.Opposites are complementaries. If you can suffer your suffering in totality, in great intensity, you will be surprised: Saul becomes Paul. You will not be able to believe it when it happens for the first time, that your own suffering absorbed willingly, welcomingly, becomes a great blessing. The same energy that becomes hate becomes love, the same energy that becomes pain becomes pleasure, the same energy that becomes suffering becomes bliss.
 5.The moment you become identified with your suffering you want to discard it, you want to get rid of it, it is so painful. But if you are a witness then suffering loses all thorns, all stings. Then there is suffering, and you are a witness to it. You are just a mirror; it has nothing to do with you. Happiness comes and goes, unhappiness comes and goes, it is a passing show; you are just there, a mirror reflecting it. Life comes and goes, death comes and goes; the mirror is not affected by either. The mirror reflects but remains unaffected; the mirror is not imprinted by either.
 6.Remember, one who enjoys more is bound to suffer more because he becomes very sensitive. But suffering is not bad. If you understand it rightly, suffering is a cleansing. If you understand it rightly, sadness has a depth to it which no happiness can ever have. A person who is simply happy is always superficial. A person who has not known sorrow and has not known sadness, has not known the depths. He has not touched the bottom of his being; he has remained just on the periphery. One has to move within these two banks. Within these two banks flows the river.
 7.Each suffering should be started in celebration. Then you change the quality of suffering itself. Each suffering should be welcomed through celebration; then the suffering is no more suffering.
 8.Suffering is there. It is part of life and part of growth; nothing is bad in it. Suffering becomes evil only when it is simply destructive and not creative at all; suffering becomes bad only when you suffer and nothing is gained out of it. But I am telling you the divine can be gained through suffering; then it becomes creative. Darkness is beautiful if the dawn is coming out of it soon; darkness is dangerous if it is endless, leads to no dawn, simply continues and continues and you go on moving in a rut, in a vicious circle. This is what is happening to you.Just to escape from one suffering you create another; then to escape from another, another. And this goes on and on and all those sufferings which you have not lived are waiting for you. You have escaped but you escape from one suffering to another, because a mind which was creating a suffering will create another. So you can escape from this suffering to that, but suffering will be there because your mind is the creative force.Accept the suffering and pass through it; don’t escape. This is a totally different dimension to work in. Suffering is there: encounter it, go through it. Fear will be there, accept it. You will tremble, so tremble. Why create a facade that you don’t tremble, that you are not afraid? If you are a coward, accept it.


Osho – Remember this, that whenever happiness comes to you, it comes for no reason at all. Suffering has a cause, happiness none. Suffering is caused by something. It is part of cause and effect: the mechanical world. Happiness is not caused by anything. Whenever you are available, it happens, as if happiness is your nature; whenever you settle into it, it happens. Unhappiness is not your nature. It has to be caused, it has to be created.
 
Remember, others can cause suffering for you, but they cannot cause happiness. Once you understand this, they cannot even cause suffering. You can cause suffering for others, you cannot cause happiness. Once you understand this, you stop causing suffering also. Suffering is part of the cause-and-effect chain. Happiness is a spontaneous arousal of life. Where there is no cause for suffering, suddenly it is there. It has always been there, but you have been too focused on suffering.
 
That’s why Buddha says,’Don’t be worried about happiness, about bliss. Don’t talk about SATCHITANAND, don’t talk about ultimate bliss — there is no need. Just know how not to cause suffering.’ If suffering is not there, the very absence of suffering is bliss, because bliss is your intrinsic nature. It is not something that comes from the outside.
 
Watch: whenever suffering is felt, you will always feel as if it is coming from the outside, and whenever you feel happy, you simply feel that happiness is arising from within you. Happiness is a flower of your own consciousness. Suffering is a thorn which has entered into you: alien, foreign, not of you. So whenever you suffer you start thinking that somebody, somewhere, must be responsible for it; known, not known, but somebody must be responsible for it.

Whenever you are happy you never think that somebody is responsible for it. Whenever you suffer, you enquire as to the cause. Whenever you are happy, you never even ask. If somebody is happy and he asks,’Why am I happy?’ it will look absurd, it will look foolish, it will look mad. You are happy — that’s all. There is no ‘why’ to it. But if somebody in suffering asks,’Why am I in suffering?’ nobody can say that he is asking irrelevant things.’Why’ with suffering is relevant, with bliss it is irrelevant.
 
Source – Osho Book “Come Follow To You Vol 4″
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 12, 2012 11:43 pm »

Much food for thought here Yoshi. This is a good reminder to not blame our suffering on others by Osho~Watch: whenever suffering is felt, you will always feel as if it is coming from the outside, and whenever you feel happy, you simply feel that happiness is arising from within you. Happiness is a flower of your own consciousness. Suffering is a thorn which has entered into you: alien, foreign, not of you. So whenever you suffer you start thinking that somebody, somewhere, must be responsible for it; known, not known, but somebody must be responsible for it.

i think i would add to this that sometimes we do feel as though others make us happy although later we often find out that is not the case. So i am not sure that this quote is a true; 'Remember, others can cause suffering for you, but they cannot cause happiness.' Sometimes we must recognize that the misery that others experience also affects us. So this rings true to me: 'Only you suffer, and because of your suffering, you make others suffer.'

Also; does a hungry man suffer because he is not happy? Or did God make us dependent on food? Does the lack of physical appeasement make us suffer or were we created to perpetuate the species? In many ways i find this post helpful though.

Jitendra
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