Spiritual Portal

Just wondering, Steve. Do you ever look at charts using the sidereal zodiac or do you prefer the tropical one?

I used to look at charts "both ways" all the time. It gave me a headache after awhile, but the way I remember it was that one of the two might be more applicable or better to "go by" than the other, depending...

The use of signs in tropical astrology seemed better suited for determining one's personality than the Vedic system. But in some cases, "destiny", "fate", etc. might show up more strikingly in the Vedic chart.

The easiest example is Adolf Hitler. If you look at just the rasi (Vedic natal chart), you see 4 planets in Aries (incl. Mars) opposite his ascendant. Of course in Vedic astrology, which is a highly predictive system, an "opposition" is deemed as such simply if the planets are in opposite signs. Degrees are less of a concern, and the same is true for all the other aspects.

But by that system, even a novice could predict, "born to raise hell".

(http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/images/course1_6_chart_hitler_rasi.gif)

So what I concluded was that in the horoscopes of friends and others with more muted/less distinct karma, they might look more like "themselves" using Western astrology. If someone was really going to make a big dent in the world, you would clearly see it in the Vedic horoscope.

But I don't think either system is limited in either of those ways, nor do I have any real scientific information to back up my findings.

(http://www.astrologyweekly.com/natal-charts/astrology/adolf-hitler.php.gif)

Opolly i think i know you from another forum if my hunch about this is correct i am very glad to see you here as well. As you no doubt know: You are bringing up quite a big subject here. Since you have opened the door though i will precede... i have placed the western version of Hitler's chart above. Thank-You for placing the vedic chart.

i want to bring up some points for clarification that you might have already thought of:

1. Astrology is a language for deciphering soul progress and the souls lessons in this life. That is primarily my definition though i know others would disagree with me.
The point i am making here is that fame has nothing to do with spiritual growth. Lessons are shown in a chart of low and high profile people in this world. Fame or or the lack of it is only relavant in the sense of what the personal soul gains from such experiences. The lack of fame could be much more important for the things that have been done that affects others. For instance: One person meditating alone in the mountains for years might not be known by anyone but yet change the lives of many more people than 'fame' that could happen on this earth. Babaji was such an example. If it had not been for the Yogananda telling of this great avatar there would be no worldly history to show the greatness of this being and his effect on countless centuries and people.

2. Destiny is the consequence of actions put into motion this life and in other lives. This destiny can be very important in changing other peoples lives and more meaningful for those who have a spiritual destiny that changes our personal lives for the better.

3. Your points about outer (worldly) marks on remembered history (on this plain) are of interest. Your camparison of the two chart systems to make this point i find fascinating.

4. We can see events (in western astrology)that show a proclivity to being in the public eye in Hitler's chart as well. i will point them out here:

a. The same opposition is shown in the western cahrt that you saw in the eastern chart with some important differences.

b. Most of Hitler's planets are in the upper hemisphere which brings a very outward role to his life with not as much inner reflection prevalent.

c. In the bottom side of the western chart he has a Jupiter Moon conjunction which gave him an incredible ability to communicate with the public..even more so because it is in the third house.

d. He has Saturn in the 10th which gave him the tremendous responsibility he had taken towards an outward career and focus on the world. i see the most difficult part of this whole chart as being the square between Saturn and Mars/Venus in the public arena. Mercury is thrown in the sixth house western style (seventh eastern)but that makes sense since it was his 'service' that got him in trouble with the world.

e. We also see this ability to communicate in the position of Mercury to the ascendent.

f. What you do not see in the Vedic chart is Uranus in the 12th (insanity) conjunct ascendent and the Neptune Pluto conjunction that brings massive delusion to the public. Especially with the fateful connection to Jupiter and Moon in the the third.

g. You have a opposition between Uranus and Mercury involvong the ascendent which you cannot see in the eastern approach. Also a good indication to be: 'born to raise hell' as you put it.

5. In conclusion i am very interested in any other points you have to make about the vedic system and the subject you brought up about destiny as shown in a chart. i would say you have some good points: The empahsis of Aries in the Vedic system and the sign is not split up as it would be if you used the western approach. i also think it is interesting that you would bring up the larger destiny of a people in reference to the vedic system....since it also seems to affect the yugas in the procession of the equinoxes. Maybe a Sun centered tropical system applies more to personal lives since it is closer to our earth....

These are only some preliminary observations. i also thing this article may be of interest: http://www.scribd.com/doc/972037/Finding-Fame-in-The-Astrology-Chart-Hitler

OK well, first I'd better tell you it's a fact that I did a lot of comparing the two systems, but that was over 20 years ago. I think astrology is the type of profession where it's better not to use a 'moonlighter' or a 'hobbyist'. To stay sharp, it needs to be practiced every single day.

I don't know the state of the predictive art now, but there was a time in India where becoming an astrologer meant about 8 years of school and 4 years as an apprentice before you could even begin your own practice.

Even though many of the charts I looked at were of famous persons (since they are commonly available), what made them seem to 'work' more clearly in the Vedic system were very clear-cut tendencies towards a single direction in life.

So for people who did not have such a straight path, you might see (for example) "Moon in the 7th house, fairly strong, waxing, with aspects from Jupiter, etc." indicating a strong tendency towards public life, but then "lord of the 1st in the 12th conjoined with the Sun" - indicating exactly the opposite, a inclination towards solitude. (Though then again that could mean someone who is famous for a short time, during the dasha period of his Moon, and then when his ascendant lord's period came up, everybody would be like, "whatever happened to....?").

So basically, the Eastern system seems more a fate-based system. And if anyone of you needs a quick dose of fatalism, look no farther than Hindu Astrology manuals. But after you do, you'll find that for many they foretell such mixed karma that you often won't be able to figure out what to conclude.

I've also looked at indications surrounding Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, which aren't traditionally regarded in Vedic astrology, though some of the younger astrologers may be using them now. Jimi Hendrix was an example of someone with a strong Uranus influence - electric, eccentric, magical. But the things that these three planets are connected with are exactly that - unpredictable by nature. So in my opinion they mostly make for a lot of wonderful after-the-fact prediction making. "Wow, just look at what yer Uranus did".

Yes and they are skewed to remarkably favor certain houses. They follow the arctic circle. It makes me cold and dizzy to think about it. Some people like to snizzazzle your mind. :-*

i don't even want to talk about it. It's a cold subject with no latitude for expansion.....

hello i found myself here from another site asking astrologers to visit.i have studied and taught western astrology before taking up the study of vedic astrology.i have learnt a lot from both and have made both work for me.i believe any system can be accurate depending on your state of conciousness and intuitive abilities.for me vedic astrology gives practical direction and an understanding of my life purpose karma etc .it is used a lot for predictive purposes as that is what  alot of people will pay money for.myself i prefer not to mix astrology with money.as for fatalistic it is like a map that you can choose to go by various routes to reach your destination .by studying the effect of the stars themselves, for me it provides a spiritual focus which i believe it was meant for .we are meant to pursue our material desires in order to learn from the experience.
   western astrology for me provided an insight into certain psychological aspects of my nature and can be useful in dealing with the complex emotional and mental problems so prevalent in the west.i believe western astrology has developed along these lines to satisfy this need.there is no reason that the effects of the outer planets cannot be incorperated into the vedic chart.i hope i never stop learning.

My specific interest is in transits which i think is very predictative in nature. i would be interested to know why you think Vedic Astrology is more predictive than transits and progression analysis in a western appraoch?

Steve Hydonus

hi steve i have made good predictions using both methods but i can make a lot more sense of my manifest life using vedic techniques it has taken me some time to get to that point as it did with western system.using a particular vedic technique ashtakvarga i can tell if the transiting planet will have a good or bad effect on the house it transits which i find usefull.as i have stated any method can be accurate .as a friend once said to me on entering a room........."do you know if i was in the right state of conciousness i could predict the future by noting how the chairs are arranged around this table".....i believe this is so..its all just a matter of personal preference...nice to find this site i play my own improvised modal music sometimes and have just started modelling in clay....glad to see people like yourself the same age as me....theres still life in us boomers

i believe that the the effects of Neptune opposition Pluto has erroded our sense of evolution. We are reaching new hieghts of evoltionary change as a race.  Especially many of the conscios boomers. Soon it will be our  younger ones who will experience it as Neptune reaches their natal Pluto as well.

Modal improvisation has dominated western music since the rise of the rockin' roll lead guitarists. Especially the pentatonic variety. i also seek out modal tonalites as you may notice in the middle section od 'Demian'. But it has become more pronounced in some of the newer songs i have channeled. i think it is a result of trying to stretch the musical sounds away from a major and minor setting. The modal feeling also seems to take in a bit of the eastern flavor.

Judging by the drop of a card in tarot and the synchronicity of events that follows a spiritual awareness i would concur about the placement of the chairs. Thanks for your insights on astrology. If you have the time it would be wonderful to here of the vedic method you use.... Jai Guru Jai Ma

Steve Hydonus

hi steve you ask about the vedic method i use i assume you mean ashtak varga.although i have been studying vedic for 20 years i have had little pravtise due to my isolation and hostility from western astrologers compounded by the fact i have studied western and changed to vedic.i have learnt to tread carefully.i have been on the internet for just 4 months and am finding opportunities to do charts but sometimes irs hard to get feedback as the commercial method seems to encourage dependency and wishing to be told how to live the life.also an element of testing of worth which is a huge turn off for me.my approach is that two heads are better than one and working together to find insight on lifes problems and issues is more fruitful and of course you can learn more.empowerment is my goal with astrology so for me a dialogue of equals works better.especially as you dont get feedback from body language and feeling( which boosts intuition)as you would face to face.consequently my progress is slowed but i persevere.
   back to the enquiry i need a lot more practise with ashtak varga to fully learn its intricacies but already its a great help.basically the transitting planet is analised to determine its positive or negative interaction with all your natal planets(by simple aspect)so if jupiter transiting say the 2nd house natally is in good relation to say 6 or 7 other natal planets it would give good results and produce wealth increased knowledge and a blessed family life according to vedic rules if it was in bad relation to 6 or 7 planets in the same position it could indicate squandering of wealth input of dubious religious knowledge overindulgence in eatingrich foods etc etc.this is just one example but i hope you get the idea of how this system can work.with favourable aspects to say 4 planets the results would be mixed as quite often is the case.

Thanks Mulaian

i find no differences here as yet that vary with transits in a western sense right down to the houses and the planets. Even if i did it would be interesting to get a different perspective. Maybe in your hope to go slow and be harmoniuos you have literally taken something out of my appraoch to transits. i do think it is wonderful when two souls can work on an intellectual or artistic project if only for developing friendship. Hope you stay in there and keep up the contact. One can never know where these things will lead. Many blessing to you....

P.S. i wonder about your rising sign, Sun sign and planets in your houses. i realize vedic astrology usually takes us back about 22 degrees. For simplicity could you tell me your tropical ascendent sign and degree? It is hard to imagine myself as a triple Gemini instead of triple Cancer. Though i am not heavily into sign analysis. The Planets angles to each other seem to be the same in both Vedic and Western appraoch. It works like mathmatics and cannot fail. Unless of course you bring the blessings of a guru into the picture. His guidance and grace are supereior to any predicative science. Although most of the time he/she seems to fit into the laws of God's creation. However miracle abound. Perhaps that is the works of a planet like Neptune. Neptune has been shuffling back and forth over the Dragons head in my chart so perhaps that is why i have seen more of those miracles of late...



Jitendra

my role has been to translate what i learn into language that people can understand .most of my understanding of astrology was learned through17 years of tropical western astrology serving a spiritual community cycling around and practising and learning.  i have deliberately left out specific details to give you an overview.it is no surpise that there are similarities as it is describing the same thing.it is when you start to add the influence of the ancient lunar zodiac called the lunar mansions in western terminology that a whole new layer emerges.these"mansions"represent 27 constellations each with its own planetery ruler and ruling star.i have much to learn yet about this more ancient lunar system.they are the root of the predictive system of dhasas or planetary periods.you are nearing the end of a 20 year venus dhasa your venus is your soul indicator and ascendant ruler so it has been a very powerfull spiritual period  for you for learning knowledge and meditation and enlightenment.

i have question for you. If Venus is my ruler then Taurus would be my ascendent. Right? If this is the case why is i that i notice things happening when 5 degrees of Gemini (Rising tropical degree) is activated?

Steve Hydonus

because that corresponds to the same point in the sky as vedic 11 degree taurus .labelling that point in the sky differently does not change the transit effect to that portion of the heavens.it is still alligned with the star prima hyadum in the constellation of taurus and quite close to aldeberan the eye of the bull in taurus.so when you were born prima hyadum was rising and aldeberan was about to rise aspects to this point would effect you personally .regardless of the labelling.

Mulaian Thanks but i am not following this. i would apprecaite elaboration. The Vedic and tropical approach are 22 degress off which is a different point in the sky and the rulership of Gemini and Taurus are two separate planets. There are many wonderful similarities. But there are also very interesting differences. It would be fascinating to bridge the differences or at least understand these incongruities. Thanks for the interaction....

Steve Hydonus

it is the same point in the sky that was rising at the time of your birth but the indian system would label it taurus as the star constellation of taurus was rising at the time . western astrology would label that same point in the sky gemini as the western zodiac is not based on the ancient zodiac of stars as everyone believes.its starting point 0 degree aries is fixed by the position of the sun at spring equinox .nowadays at this date the sun is alligned with pisceswhich is why this is called the age of pisces.using this  zodiac you are of course called gemini rising in western astrology.i try to avoid this discussion as it confuses a lot of people but it seems to be your interest.

If the indian system would label it Taurus there is definately a difference of rulerships. Venus rules Taurus and Mercury rules Gemini. Let us fisrt address this difference. Then we can address the procession of the equinoxes. My goal is to clear up the confusion and have understanding. i do think it is possible and would be a noble ambition. Since we are talking about a spiritual science here we should not ignore the facts or skirt them.

Secondly the first point of Aries in Spring has definately changed. Anyone practicing either method knows this. This accounts for the procession of the equinoxes which is part of both the western and eastern approaches. The first point of spring is now some where in Pisces. Yet in the tropical appraoch we say that the Sun has its place in Aries as designated by the time of year but not it's true placement in the sky. i do not know any astrologers of the western approach who believe that they can account for the procession of the equinoxes with the true placement of the Sun and our solar system. This would be tantamount to saying the Sun circles the earth. Observation has clearly showed us that the placement of the Sun is not at the first point of Aries in the Spring . What we can say though is that the Sun crosses the equater at the spring equinox. This is designated as the first point of Aries by the tropical approach which is part of the old school. Yet we also know that the Suns'  postion in the sky relative to the stars puts it not in Aries but in Pisces. The Suns' position relative to the earth puts it in Aries because of factors which as yet is beyond the scope of this most fascinting subject.

In the spirit of true science we seek the truth where there is confusion. Let us do this together. Then we can understand God's wonderful plan for us. There is a way. It just takes the spiirit of inquiry and an undaunted desire to cast aside superstition and find understanding. Though i truly believe that just becuase there are seeming contradictions in the tropical approach does not make it unfeasable. There are contradictions in human nature and in science today. We are beginning to understand that there can be two explanations of the same phenomena. This does not take away from the validity of what we observe. Only that the intellect and science can not put all our explanations in neat little categories with black and white explanations.

Steve Hydonus

yes the vedic system would have venus and moon as rulers of your ascendant  western would be mercury

Eleven degrees Taurus and five degrees od Gemini are the same place in the sky? Then the Suns position would be the same whether in Cancer (Tropical approach) or in Gemini (Vedic appraoch) But the Suns position is different with regards to the backdrop of the stars. So the transit effect would be at a different time. Likewise if i look in an ephemeris when planets go over 5 degress of Gemini this is clearly a different time then when they go over 11 degress Taurus. The ascendent would be effected at different times by looking when it was crossing 5 dgress of Gemini and 11 degress of Taurus. Do you read a different transit book? All transit books that i have seen are the same. 'That position of the heavens' that is the same for both systems (With different names) would have to have two separate transit books to account for the procession of the equinoxes. So what you are saying is that 11 degress of Taurus is the same as 5 degress of Gemini? Right? Yes i agree but the names given to those positions definately conote different meanings. How do we account for these different meanings? Also how do we make allowances for the differences we see in the ephemeris to be able to see the palnets at the same time in the same zodiacal sign position. We obviously would have to do some mathmatics or have two separate books.

Steve Hydonus

yes vedic transits would be in vedic zodiac 2 different ephemeris .before ephemeris you would have looked at the sky and would see the transits of the planets( or wandering stars as they were called)against the background of the star zodiac.without pollution and electric lighting the stars would be  much more visible to all.2000years ago the sun was at the beginning of aries at the spring equinox aligning the two zodiacs.the precession of the equinoxes in relation to the stars has slowly moved the two systems out of alignment by 24 degree since that time in another 400 years they will be 30 degrees out of alignment.

Yes i understand this and have understood it. But you did not answer my questions in the last post:

which question?

All the questions are being reposted. They have question marks after them like they did before.

Jai Guru

 The ascendent would be effected at different times by looking when it was crossing 5 degress of Gemini and 11 degress of Taurus. Do you read a different transit book? All transit books that i have seen are the same. 'That position of the heavens' that is the same for both systems (With different names) would have to have two separate transit books to account for the procession of the equinoxes. So what you are saying is that 11 degress of Taurus is the same as 5 degress of Gemini? Right? Yes i agree but the names given to those positions definately conote different meanings. How do we account for these different meanings? Also how do we make allowances for the differences we see in the ephemeris to be able to see the planets at the same time in the same zodiacal sign position? We obviously would have to do some mathmatics or have two separate books.

Steve Hydonus

i can only answer how i deal with this i am good at mental arithmetic and can make all the adjustments in my head.yes there are two different ephemeris .and two different interpretations of a chart in fact i believe a different interpretation from each astrologer.how we can reconcile two different systems with two different interpretations most people dont .a simple thanks but no thanks is the usual response.some will be curious but not many as its a lot of work.

Tell me Mulaian what inventions that were done were not a lot of work? How many times did Edison try to make a light work before it did? Literally hundreds. Perhaps thousands of times. You may have noticed that i have not said you are wrong in the eastern outlook nor have i said i am right in the western approach. Merely that there are differences and similarities. My goal is to find a feasible link that ties these two forms together. Perhaps it will be work for our predecessors but we can lay the foundation of that quest.

We can start out with the premise that Sri Yukteswar had. That is the procession of the equinoxes which he called the Yugas that affect mankind in general. There is further study of this phenomena in The book the Initiation by Elizabeth Haich. However without reading a lot we can use the knowledge we have of the two systems to compare notes.

First of all any emphemeris that i know of shows not the eastern appraoch but rather the western approach. Do you know of a ephemeris that shows the postion of the stars in there correct position taking into acoount the procession of the equinoxes? Or all ephemeris books showing  the postion of the signs in a totally Sun centered astrology? If you know a book that tells me the postion of the planets according to the position of the planets today, that takes into account the procession of the equinoxes, please tell me. i think that it would be harder to have such a book since the position of the planets with regards to the signs are changing over time in more than one way. You say in your post that there are "two different ephemeris" Do you mean in your head, because you do the calculations, or do you mean there literally are two different books?

Jitendra

i started off doing it in my head from western ephemeris but am sure that indian ephemeris have existed and do exist in india .as most astrology is done by computer these days,the electronic ephemeris is available and part of every vedic astrology program,this is what i use now and dont look at a western ephemeris anymore.

Thanks Mulaian i do not want to force your interest however if you have it i would like to continue this topic. Perhaps not all at once but over time. i do not have an Indian ephemeris nor a program for it. However it is possible that i can find this info on the internet to make observations. You are invited to use my chart to compare or we could use yours also. My birth time is 7/4/52 Pasadena California 3:10 A.M. My western chart is located under charts in this section of the forum. Perhaps we should have a separate section with Vedic charts. You could start it if you'd like. We would be priveleged. i will put the heading  in this area.

Steve

im sure you will find it a rewarding enquiry to study the same system that sri yuktswar used.for an enlightened western approach david frawley and his book astrology of the seers is a great book to read and learn from.also komilla sutton manages to bridge the east and west very well.we can explore your chart if you like.

i have not seen you back here for a while. i would still be interested in exploring my chart in vedic astrology if you would do that i would like to explore yours in the tropical mode. What do you think? i need your data. We could post charts here and under 'charts'

Jitendra

Mulaian i understand what you are saying here. The only thing that would be different is the labeling. The aspects to the planets and points on the chart would be the same just the interpretaions of the signs that occupy these areas would be different. Right?

Jitendra

yes a different interpretation

Yet wouldn't the interpretation of the aspects be similar? i mean; a square between two planets or a conjunction to the ascendent would still be the same. Wouldn't it? It is just the color we cast over it by the signs.

Steve Hydonus

so i thought initially but its a lot more complex than that.with different houses ruling planets and a different way of viewing aspects.

I would say that any planets ruling my house would be better than the arrangement I have right now. It is a lot more complex than you could dream, but my wife thinks its very simple. Debate is out of the question.

Alfred E. Newman

Yes i was aware of that one. i think it would be very interesting to find someone that could explain Capricorn on my midheaven with Saturn ruling. Especially since i have always had rather unusual career situations with a lot of electronics involved. But if you would like to try it would be quite fascinating.

The western approach is obviously a Sun approached astrology. When it crosses the equater that is the first point of Aries despite what is literally light years away. But i give the eastern approach credit; i do accept the view of the procession of the equinoxes and it's affect over generations and milinneums. i have lots to learn form the Eastern approach before i can assess it. i am sure it has much to offer. As you know your interest in astrology shows up strong in the western approach adding the influence of Uranus on your midheaven which rules astrology. It would be nice to hear a bit more than one liners my friend. You are welcome to put my chart in an Eastern format for starts. i would really appreciate your views.

Steve Hydonus

i am trying to avoid saying much to avoid misunderstanding .you may have noticed our mercury's are inconjunct.most of your questions can be answered by reading one good vedic book.much better than me.

hi steve i just found some info new to me which does bring together both systems using a tropical zodiac which he says sri yukteswar did use.it seems that the zodiac is not meant to represent the stars. on that basis i can see a strong case for the western tropical zodiac which we both know works well from experience.the ancient nakshatra system(27 lunar mansions) becomes independant of the tropical one and it is this zodiac that represents the star influence and is used for forecasting planetary periods and timing events, using the western zodiac for interpretation .i have just discovered this method(so much out there)so it will take some time to verify .the guy says thus method is more accurate than either system so i will investigate as i am curious...check it out ..www.vedic-astrology.net...finally some common ground

i tried using tropical zodiac with vedic system but for me it doesnt work. shame as it would have made things simpler .so its back to the tried and tested but with new insight. for me adding western techniques to vedic zodiac works better ...each to there own
  if anyone is interested i have started facebook group called star trek. members are mostly followers of western sytem, so i try to avoid talking vedic zodiac. but discuss the effects of lunar mansions(common to western and vedic) called nakshatras in vedic.welcome all comments by western astrologers.the important thing is sharing of information and ideas