Spiritual Portal

Recently I discovered mccoy plays piano. What a revelation to me. Can we talk about music on this thread?

Steve, for some time I really delved into it. I had some gigs with a jazz Group. My mistake though was that I heard too much the jazz giants, especially so McCoy Tyner, whose name I adopted as a web moniker. They are extremely talented people who are born with a musical Genius. It is simply impossible for someone who has not outstanding muscial tendencies to be able to play like them. You must have perfect ear, you must have perfect coordination, you must have perfect sense of rythm and the time to exercise, you must have ideas. If you can play like them you are actually a fully fledged talent yourself. So I got discouraged and quit for many years. Now I'm starting back but with a more realistic outlook. I'm also trying to deveolp some tricks, I especially like outside harmony, minor melodic harmony. You can specialize in one specific way to improvise, so limiting the time needed to exercise.

It is always interested me how a flat third or a flat 5th will work in a major key and sounds good, although I must admit they are quite often used as passing tones or or stretches into the 3rd or stretches into the fifth which are done on string instruments......Something unusual about blues and R&R.

I always wondered about your avatar name Mccoy; For some reason I associated it with the Real McCoys. What a laugh.  Now that I have a more clear perception of what you were conveying it sheds a whole new light on things.

Steve, in jazz music a flat 3rd would be used on a major/minor chord or altered chord scale, such as, in Bb: Bb-B-Db-D-E-Gb-Ab
The flat fifth, or augmented #4th, or #11th, is a so called 'lydian' sound and is also present in the altered scale of Bb.

In jazz you can play whatever you wish and go outside, providing the overall result si not horrible. I like to play the blues outside, that way I can sound like a badass jazz musician even with minimum exercise.

For example, in the Bb tone, we have 4 bars Bb7 and next 2 bars Eb7

I'll play the Galt scale notes on Bb7 and the Aalt scale notes on Eb7.

Galt scale: G-Ab-Bb-B-Db-Eb-F-G
Aalt scale: A-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G-A

This is while bass & drums are playing notes over the basic chords. With a guitar in the rythmic section it might be Tricky but I'm going to find out.

I presume Blues and R&R have simpler rules but many many possible variations, ruled by taste and results. Which are nto the same for everyone.

In jazz there are no rules except final result, but you must absolutely keep tempo and show the other musicians and audience that, after an outside stint, you get back exactly inside the main harmony, usually in the last bar or on an important chord change.

Ah treasure!

I can understand the #4 because if you play F lydian the 'b' or sharp 4 makes a major 7th in a Dominant chord which makes a c major 7th. However using a B natural (in the g alt scale) with a b flat chord sounds bad to my ear.

So you play four beats of b flat and two bars of e flat... interesting use of rhythm... shortening the sub dominant, with no dominant. Just back and fourth between tonic 7th and sub dominant 7th.

The Illuminati have set foot at spiritual portal.

Steve, I agree that the Bnatural on the Bb7 of the first bars of the blues may not sound orthodox. In traditional blues it's a forbiddennote, whereas in jazz it is not, whereas It is good to use it after some more bluesy sound has been played. The most bluesy sounds I can now think about in Bb make up the following scale (just played them on the keyboard):

Bb-Db-Eb-E-F-Ab-A-Bb

It can be used with all the basic chords of the Bb blues: Bb7, Eb7, Cm7, F7

I may come up with other outside combinations, I'm going to write up a whole outside blues chorus.

Full dissonances are often played in jazz, the late Mulgrew Miller, also an SRF devotee, was an absolute Genius in using dissonances to produce an etheral sound, more suggestive of the heavens.

B natural with a B flat scale?

My bad, mixed up flat and natural, corrected the error!

I enjoyed that progression. i think I am with u this time around. If u use the b natural it would be after u established the key. The b natural to a b flat could be used as a grace note... an embellishment of sorts. A raise 1st or 8th. Wow that's a new one on me!

In the bluesy scale I wrote in the previous post there is no B natural, although there is a A natural which sounds good especially when resolving to Bb in the last bar.

A B natural would be the second note of Balt scale, which is an option on the Bb7 chord in the first bars of a Bb blues (or in 5th and 6th bars of a F blues)

Bb-B-Db-D-E-Gb-Ab-Bb

In strict theoretical terms, the above would be a B natural melodic minor scale

Mark Levine's Jazz theory book explains it very clearly.  Melodic minor scale harmony in Bb is played on the following chords:

Bnatural minor-major (min 7+)
Db sus b9
Dmaj#5
E7#11
B minor-major/G
Ab half diminuished
Bb7 alt

I'm not so good to remember all them, I'm reading from Levine's book.

Right, a grace note, although A natural makes up a more traditional grace note in Bb blues.

You can also try a B natural one-bar-long note on a Bb blues first measure, it may sound weird at first, but in jazz it just means you are playing in a decidedly outside, untamed style. Both are good, tame and untamed ways of playing, Mulgrew Miller could play either exceedingly well.

Thanks Mccoy. I will give these things a try when i get some time... Will let u know. I have been doing a lot of composition. i am more used to the modal scales, blues scales, pentatonic, major and minor diatonic and the harmonic and melodic minors.

Although I have been using different time signatures. 6/4,
5/4, 3/4 to 4/4 and 7/8 in some of the songs passing thru this vehicle.

Steve Hydonus

That vehicle is a truck which grinds everything, you have all sorts of even and uneven times there, 7/8 is sure not an easy one to tackle and I myself would have sure problems in improvising on that.

A truck that grinds everything hah... you have quite a malignant sense of humor... lol Sometime I'll post a song I channeled called 'Fragrant Mint Tea' it's in 7/8 time. It just keeps u one step ahead!

Steve, by 'grinding everything' I did nto mean destroying everything on his route, rather using all kinds of fuel (music) and turning them into mechanical (vibrtionsl) power. So the sense of humour is benevolent.

By the way, I just saw your demian song on Utube, I enjoyed that, also, good chords progressions in your impro stretches!

Mccoy Saving for the last two chords... your progression has an upward momentum that culminates in the Ab half diminished and Bb7 alt.

Steve, that's the same thing as playing the chords in the major scale/harmony of C:

C maj
D-7
E-7
Fmaj
G7
A-7
Bdim7
Cmaj

In the previous example, it was a similar ascending sequence but the changes were into the melodic minor scale/harmony of B natural.

Back to the blues scale, I found out other two examples to go outside.

1) The first is an example from a Bb blues played by Greg Osby. As far as I my ear goes, he plays mainly in Bb altered chord, that is on the harmony of B natural melodic minor . He goes on with these notes: Bb, Bnatural, Db, Dnatural, E, Gflat, Ab, Bb

I may be wrong of course, I've no good hear. You may hear him in this video, starting from 50:11, the three saxophonists play Sonny Rollins' blues, Tenor Madness, then Greg Osby plays the first impro.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/J0IFdrj3IO8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Another way which I devised to play outside blues, Always in Bb. This has its own logic as you can see.

-First four bars in E natural altered, this melodic minor harmony includes all the notes of the dominant Bb7 chord:
E
F
G
Ab
Bb
C
D
E
-2 bars A natural altered, this melodic minor harmony includes all the notes of the dominant Eb7 chord:
A
Bb
C
Db
Eb
F
G
A

-2 bars E altered as above
-4 bars B natural altered, this melodic minor harmony includes all the notes of the dominant F7 chord:

Bnatural
C
D
Eb
F
G
A
Bnatural

The bass should keep playing the usual Bb changes, or maybe trying soem adventurous variations, but unless the Group is very tight, he-she  should keep those changes since I navigate better across my outside changes hearing the sound of the bass changing to the traditional chords.

Since this thread is for talking about music which seems pretty general, I am thinking of purchasing a Ukelele, likely a Kamaka tenor 6 string. Nice uplifting tone.

SI, While I know a little piano & sax, Steve sure knows better strings