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Title: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: yoshi on Aug 14, 2011 04:27 pm suffering can lead us back unto God again...in a 'timely manner'. the more suffering that is 'put upon our plate'....the more blessed we should feel. when we find ourselves in the ocean/mire of suffering....who is it that we should hold our hands out to, to help us un-stick ourselves out of the mire ??? God. God is our 'life-saver / life raft' out of the ocean-mire of suffering. the more suffering....all the more we hold our hand out to God.....all the more we call out to God....all the more God reaches for us... ((Love&Hugs&OM))) yoshi Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: Jitendra Hydonus on Aug 15, 2011 07:57 am suffering can lead us back unto God again...in a 'timely manner'. the more suffering that is 'put upon our plate'....the more blessed we should feel. when we find ourselves in the ocean/mire of suffering....who is it that we should hold our hands out to, to help us un-stick ourselves out of the mire ??? God. God is our 'life-saver / life raft' out of the ocean-mire of suffering. the more suffering....all the more we hold our hand out to God.....all the more we call out to God....all the more God reaches for us... ((Love&Hugs&OM))) yoshi Behind suffering are often the greatest opportunities for learning and the greatest epiphanies in understanding when we r able to surrender to the message and significance of what is being shown to us through the suffering. Psychological suffering occurs as a result of the resistance in letting go of our cherished ideas surrounding others. Physical suffering is part of a warning system that helps us understand where are attitudes have gone wrong but it is also a condition of living and life. The Buddha explained that life is suffering that is why he helped us find the solution to suffering and a way out. Thanks for the inspiration Yoshi just thought i would add a little bit to yours. There is a word for suffering and understanding y God allows it. That word is theodicy. It is the theological discipline that seeks to explain how the existence of evil (which causes suffering) in the world can be reconciled with the justice and goodness of God ... It has been the main stimulus to my following the spiritual path in the beginning. The Problem Of Theodicy The fact that there is so much suffering in the world presents us with a problem. The problem is, how is it possible for all the suffering and death that occurs in the world to take place, if the world is actually under the control of an all-good, all-powerful God? As an example; your answers to the dilemma of suffering helps us in our attitude to it. However how would a one year old b able to have this attitude if they were starving and had no conception of a God at that age? How could a dog gain an appreciation for the meaning of evil and suffering if it was locked in a kennel and went stir crazy? J Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: guest58 on Aug 15, 2011 10:32 am Yoshi You would not suffer at all if you would just listen to my sense of humor without prejudice. If need be I will tickle you when the punch line comes in so at least you can pretend.
No sense in being a sour puss; If your ticklish you'll laugh even if it causes suffering. Alfie Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: yoshi on Aug 16, 2011 12:57 pm ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: Jitendra Hydonus on Aug 19, 2011 07:28 am suffering can lead us back unto God again...in a 'timely manner'. the more suffering that is 'put upon our plate'....the more blessed we should feel. when we find ourselves in the ocean/mire of suffering....who is it that we should hold our hands out to, to help us un-stick ourselves out of the mire ??? God. God is our 'life-saver / life raft' out of the ocean-mire of suffering. the more suffering....all the more we hold our hand out to God.....all the more we call out to God....all the more God reaches for us... ((Love&Hugs&OM))) yoshi Y suffer;when you have friends that care about u, pray for u and love u? J Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: flying squirrel on Aug 19, 2011 10:23 am just tossing a few ideas into the air ! 8)
some people choose to suffer for one reason or another perhaps it was something they did in a past life now Karma is here, biting them back, for past actions ? there is also a line of thought that we write our own map of our life before we get here if so, then the current suffering is a choice made long ago in order to learn a certain lesson marriage is a choice not all live happily ever after people change, times change, thoughts change life happens, deal with it some lines of spiritual thinking believe one must suffer to be close to God squirrel and a few others, don't believe this is so 8) it is just as easy to be close to God when one is joyful and happy God wants us to be happy, choose happiness if one is constantly focusing on suffering,and " oh woe is me " that is what you draw to you ! then, there are some who choose to be a drama queen not saying any of these apply, not saying they don't apply ;D just tossing ideas in the air ! 8) better to toss ideas in the air than to toss your cookies !! ;D Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: Jitendra Hydonus on Aug 19, 2011 12:57 pm just tossing a few ideas into the air ! 8) some people choose to suffer for one reason or another perhaps it was something they did in a past life now Karma is here, biting them back, for past actions ? there is also a line of thought that we write our own map of our life before we get here if so, then the current suffering is a choice made long ago in order to learn a certain lesson marriage is a choice not all live happily ever after people change, times change, thoughts change life happens, deal with it some lines of spiritual thinking believe one must suffer to be close to God squirrel and a few others, don't believe this is so 8) it is just as easy to be close to God when one is joyful and happy God wants us to be happy, choose happiness if one is constantly focusing on suffering,and " oh woe is me " that is what you draw to you ! then, there are some who choose to be a drama queen not saying any of these apply, not saying they don't apply ;D just tossing ideas in the air ! 8) better to toss ideas in the air than to toss your cookies !! ;D u have heard it said that a sad saint is a bad saint. Meditation is about making us happy. The happier we r the more we feel Gods presence and visa versa. i am very skeptical about people who feel and talk to God but do not exhibit that joy and happiness in relation to others or do not express love in ther encounters with others. However i think Yoshi was just saying that you can experience God in suffering as well. Because life does bring suffering as well as joy. Jitendra Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: yoshi on Aug 19, 2011 01:04 pm i dont recall ever saying that suffering is a bad thing.... it is what it is..... thought that my original post was quite positive.....it is something that i have learned is all. i am not complaining or dramatizing....stating a fact is all i have done. ;) ;D suffering is a way to God....it is a way that God holds his/her hand out to us. <3<3<3 (((Love&Hugs&OM))) yoshi Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: Jitendra Hydonus on Aug 19, 2011 01:16 pm i dont recall ever saying that suffering is a bad thing.... it is what it is..... thought that my original post was quite positive.....it is something that i have learned is all. i am not complaining or dramatizing....stating a fact is all i have done. ;) ;D suffering is a way to God....it is a way that God holds his/her hand out to us. <3<3<3 (((Love&Hugs&OM))) yoshi u have not said suffering is a bad things nor have we said that u r dramatizing or complaining dear one. We r just participating in your interesting and thought provoking thread and the story u weave. :P i have always been interested in theodicy which was an impetus to my getting on the spiritual path in the first place. If everything was pleasant here who would make the effort to go home? Don't we all dramatize a bit? i do; but i am trying to b more of a witness to the great cosmic drama in which God himself is the Drama King; Didn't he create it? Any one with a name like 'Professional Squirrel' has potential for getting an acting award himself. 8) The drama is what we r supposed to b enjoying without getting caught up in it. A bit of a trick of the tail.. wouldn't u say...left between a rock and a hard place. :) (http://col.stb.s-msn.com/i/3E/7672F9CF7545E871F3837184FBC81A.jpg) J Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: yoshi on Aug 19, 2011 01:41 pm u have heard it said that a sad saint is a bad saint. Meditation is about making us happy. The happier we r the more we feel Gods presence and visa versa. i am very skeptical about people who feel and talk to God but do not exhibit that joy and happiness in relation to others or do not express love in ther encounters with others. However i think Yoshi was just saying that you can experience God in suffering as well. Because life does bring suffering as well as joy. Jitendra i done forgot the name...but there was a 'crying saint'. ;) meditation also is a healer. we heal ourselves....learn to love ourselves....and connect to God again. during the period of healing , includes healing of past....sometimes during that time past 'hurts' surface,,,they do this so that we may heal and move on. 'sadness' sometimes comes during this time....it will pass. a person may seem sad on the outside...but may not be experiencing it inside.... Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: Jitendra Hydonus on Aug 19, 2011 01:43 pm u have heard it said that a sad saint is a bad saint. Meditation is about making us happy. The happier we r the more we feel Gods presence and visa versa. i am very skeptical about people who feel and talk to God but do not exhibit that joy and happiness in relation to others or do not express love in ther encounters with others. However i think Yoshi was just saying that you can experience God in suffering as well. Because life does bring suffering as well as joy. Jitendra i done forgot the name...but there was a 'crying saint'. ;) meditation also is a healer. we heal ourselves....learn to love ourselves....and connect to God again. during the period of healing , includes healing of past....sometimes during that time past 'hurts' surface,,,they do this so that we may heal and move on. 'sadness' sometimes comes during this time....it will pass. a person may seem sad on the outside...but may not be experiencing it inside.... (http://col.stb.s-msn.com/i/3E/7672F9CF7545E871F3837184FBC81A.jpg) i dink i understan ma ma if i seem very sad i still feel good inside... really i do do Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: flying squirrel on Aug 19, 2011 04:44 pm u have heard it said that a sad saint is a bad saint. no, sorry never heard that one ! ??? sometimes I think you just make up these sayings 8) we aren't talking saint here anyways ;D Quote However i think Yoshi was just saying that you can experience God in suffering as well. Because life does bring suffering as well as joy. in agreement with you here brother, life does bring suffering as well as joy Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: flying squirrel on Aug 19, 2011 04:50 pm i dont recall ever saying that suffering is a bad thing.... it is what it is..... squirrel didn't say you said " that suffering is a bad thing " ;) 8) squirrel was just participating in suffering discussion, tossing ideas into the air not all were " words of squisdom " ;D Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: flying squirrel on Aug 19, 2011 05:05 pm If everything was pleasant here who would make the effort to go home? Any one with a name like 'Professional Squirrel' has potential for getting an acting award himself. the problem I see with this idea of " making the effort to go home " is that so many seem to forget there is a reason they are here on earth in the first place all you hear is the complaining and yes, it sounds like complaining to me ! of all the imperfections here on earth, all the suffering one is enduring, etc etc etc. they get so caught up with " going home " they don't take time to enjoy the gifts, the beauty God has provided here on earth yeah, not all is love and roses just don't waste the time God has given you here hey dude ! not sure who Professional Squirrel is ? ??? name is, always has been............... flying squirrel 8) Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: Jitendra Hydonus on Aug 19, 2011 07:54 pm the problem I see with this idea of " making the effort to go home " is that so many seem to forget there is a reason they are here on earth in the first place all you hear is the complaining and yes, it sounds like complaining to me ! of all the imperfections here on earth, all the suffering one is enduring, etc etc etc. they get so caught up with " going home " they don't take time to enjoy the gifts, the beauty God has provided here on earth yeah, not all is love and roses just don't waste the time God has given you here flying squirrel 8) You never told us what you thought to b the reason for being on this earth Squirrel. Are we left to guess? By the way 'home' is not a place but a state of being. Let us get past names (Professional or not.) for now and look further into this subject of suffering. The Buddha was considered and enlightened man. Can we agree on that? So let us see what he said about life and suffering: Life Is Suffering? What Does That Mean? Dukkha: A Little Word With a Lot of Meaning The Buddha didn't speak English. This should be obvious, since the historical Buddha lived in India almost 26 centuries ago. Yet it's a point lost on many people who get stuck on the definitions of English words used in translations. For example, people want to argue with the first of the Four Noble Truths, often translated as "life is suffering." That sounds so negative. But, remember, the Buddha didn't speak English, so he didn't use the English word, "suffering." What he said, according to the earliest scriptures, is that life is dukkha. "Dukkha" is Pali, a variation of Sanskrit, and it means a lot of things. For example, anything temporary is dukkha, including happiness. But some people can't get past that English word "suffering" and want to disagree with the Buddha because of it. I've noticed that some translators are chucking out "suffering" and replacing it with "dissatisfaction" or "stress." I'm a bit dissatisfied with that approach, however. Sometimes translators bump into words that have no corresponding words meaning exactly the same thing in the other language. I believe "dukkha" is one of those words. Understanding dukkha, however, is critical to understanding the Four Noble Truths. And the Four Noble Truths are the foundation of Buddhism. Filling in the Blank Because there is no single English word that neatly and tidily contains the same range of meaning and connotation as "dukkha," I think it's better not to translate it. Otherwise, you'll waste time spinning your wheels over a word that doesn't mean what the Buddha meant. So, throw out "suffering," "stress," "dissatisfaction," or whatever other English word is standing in for it, and go back to "dukkha." Do this even if -- especially if -- you don't understand what "dukkha" means. Think of it as an algebraic "X," or a value you're trying to discover. Defining Dukkha The Buddha taught there are three main categories of dukkha. These are: Suffering or pain (dukkha-dukkha) Impermanence or change (viparinama-dukkha) Conditioned states (samkhara-dukkha) Let's take these one at a time. Suffering or Pain (Dukkha-dukkha). Ordinary suffering, as defined by the English word, is one form of dukkha. This includes physical, emotional and mental pain. Impermanence or Change (Viparinama-dukkha). Anything that is not permanent, that is subject to change, is dukkha. Thus, happiness is dukkha, because it is not permanent. Great success, which fades with the passing of time, is dukkha. Even the purest state of bliss experienced in spiritual practice is dukkha. This doesn't mean that happiness, success and bliss are bad, or that it's wrong to enjoy them. If you feel happy, then enjoy feeling happy. Just don't cling to it. Conditioned States (Samkhara-dukkha). To be conditioned is to be dependent on or affected by something else. According to the teaching of dependent origination, all phenomena are conditioned. Everything affects everything else. This is the most difficult part of the teachings on dukkha to understand, but it is critical to understanding Buddhism. What Is the Self? This takes us to the Buddha's teachings on the self. According to the doctrine of anatman (or anatta) there is no "self" in the sense of a permanent, integral, autonomous being within an individual existence. What we think of as our self, our personality and ego, are temporary creations of the skandhas. The skandhas, or "five aggregates," or "five heaps," are a combination of five properties or energies that make what we think of as an individual being. Theravada scholar Walpola Rahula said, "What we call a 'being', or an 'individual', or 'I', is only a convenient name or a label given to the combination of these five groups. They are all impermanent, all constantly changing. 'Whatever is impermanent is dukkha' (Yad aniccam tam dukkham). This is the true meaning of the Buddha's words: 'In brief the Five Aggregates of Attachment are dukkha.' They are not the same for two consecutive moments. Here A is not equal to A. They are in a flux of momentary arising and disappearing." Life Is Dukkha Understanding the First Noble Truth is not easy. For most of us, it takes years of dedicated practice, especially to go beyond a conceptual understanding to a realization of the teaching. Yet people often glibly dismiss Buddhism as soon as they hear that word "suffering." That's why I think it is useful to toss out English words like "suffering" and "stressful" and go back to "dukkha." Let the meaning of dukkha unfold for you, without other words getting in the way. The historical Buddha once summarized his own teachings this way: "Both formerly and now, it is only dukkha that I describe, and the cessation of dukkha." Buddhism will be a muddle for anyone who doesn't grasp the deeper meaning of dukkha. So we read here: This doesn't mean that happiness, success and bliss are bad, or that it's wrong to enjoy them. If you feel happy, then enjoy feeling happy. Just don't cling to it. Often we cling to our conditions and people we have shared our lives with. This brings suffering. We can dig deeper and deeper grooves of suffering in the record of our lives when we share our lives in conditions and people that r no longer spiritually conducive to our happiness. There is a time to let go of everything. Death will teach us that if we do not learn it before... i dont recall ever saying that suffering is a bad thing.... it is what it is..... thought that my original post was quite positive.....it is something that i have learned is all. i am not complaining or dramatizing....stating a fact is all i have done. ;) ;D suffering is a way to God....it is a way that God holds his/her hand out to us. <3<3<3 (((Love&Hugs&OM))) yoshi u r stating your facts. Suffering is what it is? .....and what is that? There r many ways to God as u know Yoshi. While some of us respect your way; We may not choose the same way.... as Squirrel and i r explaining to u... We r learning together here... in love in light... Jitendra Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: flying squirrel on Aug 19, 2011 08:28 pm Quote from: Steve Hydonus If everything was pleasant here who would make the effort to go home? By the way 'home' is not a place but a state of being. squirrel is confused if 'home' is not a place then why does one need to make an effort to 'go home ? ' if ' home ' is a state of being cannot we just sit and mediate and 'om om om' and be there ? Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: Jitendra Hydonus on Aug 19, 2011 08:35 pm Quote from: Steve Hydonus If everything was pleasant here who would make the effort to go home? By the way 'home' is not a place but a state of being. squirrel is confused if 'home' is not a place then why does one need to make an effort to 'go home ? ' if ' home ' is a state of being cannot we just sit and mediate and 'om om om' and be there ? Can u? or rather do u with no effort? It takes a herculean effort to clear the debris of karma and wrong attitudes out of our lives so we r free to sit and b there. Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: flying squirrel on Aug 19, 2011 08:40 pm Quote from: Steve Hydonus If everything was pleasant here who would make the effort to go home? By the way 'home' is not a place but a state of being. squirrel is confused if 'home' is not a place then why does one need to make an effort to 'go home ? ' if ' home ' is a state of being cannot we just sit and mediate and 'om om om' and be there ? Can u? or rather do u with no effort? It takes a herculean effort to clear the debris of karma and wrong attitudes out of our lives so we r free to sit and b there. I am not talking karma and attitudes not everyone has a life full of such debris ! karma is just another excuse used when things are not going as one might like blame it on karma ! maybe confusion starts with the definition of what is meant by " going home " ? more than just stating it is a state of being ? being what ? Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: flying squirrel on Aug 19, 2011 08:45 pm interesting article about Buddha and dukkha
thanx for taking time to post it ! 8) Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: Jitendra Hydonus on Aug 19, 2011 09:01 pm Quote from: Steve Hydonus If everything was pleasant here who would make the effort to go home? By the way 'home' is not a place but a state of being. squirrel is confused if 'home' is not a place then why does one need to make an effort to 'go home ? ' if ' home ' is a state of being cannot we just sit and mediate and 'om om om' and be there ? Can u? or rather do u with no effort? It takes a herculean effort to clear the debris of karma and wrong attitudes out of our lives so we r free to sit and b there. I am not talking karma and attitudes not everyone has a life full of such debris ! karma is just another excuse used when things are not going as one might like blame it on karma ! maybe confusion starts with the definition of what is meant by " going home " ? more than just stating it is a state of being ? being what ? Maybe; maybe not. i'd rather listen to what the Masters had to say. Home; Bliss and ever new joy and enlightenment. Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: Jitendra Hydonus on Aug 19, 2011 09:04 pm interesting article about Buddha and dukkha thanx for taking time to post it ! 8) Certainly. i have often wondered; what is the spiritual path u have chosen? J Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: flying squirrel on Aug 19, 2011 09:21 pm I have not chosen one path
life is a journey complete with detours ! ;D 8) Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: Jitendra Hydonus on Aug 20, 2011 01:40 am I am not talking karma and attitudes not everyone has a life full of such debris ! karma is just another excuse used when things are not going as one might like blame it on karma ! Suffering for most of us is self created. We let things get out of control. We let our emotions get out of control. We let psychological vampires drain our psychic energies. We become psychological antiques. We fail to recognize that there r people and situations in our life that no longer serve a constructive purpose. These people r not contributing to our true happiness but rather to our suffering consciousness. So we shut down emotionally and think that we r on some path to God; When in reality we r trapped in the past. Trapped in our own self made prisons and suffering. We r not living to please God but rather a life of self absorption. An autistic existence that looses its relation to the outside world. There is an inability to function in this world with positive energies. We have lost the joy of living. Yet we can give our suffering to Divine Mother and relinquish our negative attitudes. It is just as easy to get close to God when one is joyful and happy. i could not agree with u more. Many times i have been told (By others i respect in their views.)that God is not drawn to those who constantly bemoan situations and live in a prison of the past. The more happy we r the more happy we become. Because God is drawn to our happiness and love. If we r in a state of self pity and self absorption how can we expect to attract joy and love into our lives? We loose the capacity to receive love from others. We become so immersed in our little selves that we r unable to receive God's blessings and joy from others. There can be even deeper difficulties; Being alone in our suffering can cause subconscious reactions that do not coincide with reality. We want so much to b spiritual that we imagine things that r not true. We hear and see things that r subconscious in nature but not true spiritual experiences. We think we have some 'mission to accomplish'. During these times of being alone it is very important to realize that we need others to help us see clearly so we don't see life out of the darkness and despair of our inner sanctum. We can let subconscious messages and voices take us over and the results can b truly dangerous in scope. i am saying this out of years of being around people who have had spiritual and psychic experiences. There is a fine line between mental illness and spirituality and i have seen those who have a spiritual nature go over the deep end. Please do not take this personally but i still think that those who have spiritual experiences should stay in touch with others who r at a relative stage of development as themselves or higher. If they/we become too engaged with sleepers we loose r perspective because we do not have enough input from those who share the same interests as ourselves. Jitendra just tossing a few ideas into the air ! 8) some people choose to suffer for one reason or another perhaps it was something they did in a past life now Karma is here, biting them back, for past actions ? there is also a line of thought that we write our own map of our life before we get here if so, then the current suffering is a choice made long ago in order to learn a certain lesson marriage is a choice not all live happily ever after people change, times change, thoughts change life happens, deal with it some lines of spiritual thinking believe one must suffer to be close to God squirrel and a few others, don't believe this is so 8) it is just as easy to be close to God when one is joyful and happy God wants us to be happy, choose happiness if one is constantly focusing on suffering,and " oh woe is me " that is what you draw to you ! then, there are some who choose to be a drama queen not saying any of these apply, not saying they don't apply ;D just tossing ideas in the air ! 8) better to toss ideas in the air than to toss your cookies !! ;D Title: Re: ~*~* suffering *~*~ Post by: gypsy soul on Aug 22, 2011 08:23 pm you can lead a horse to water, yet cannot make the horse drink how can you offer a donkey carrot salad with relish and not expect him to want a taste ? :D your sweet soul sister ♥ |